Is it possible to sin in the new covenant and under grace?
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Romans 3:21-25
21But now the righteousness of God (1)apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, (2)through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on (3)all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 (4)being justified (5)freely by His Grace (6) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth(7) [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
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Wayno, I know way too well to answer this question lightly. But I will give you the two answers that just popped into my head. This is not something I have thought long and hard about, and not necessary a doctrine I stand on but let me give this a go and open the floor to some discussion:
1) Looking at 1Co 15:56 "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law".
If we reason that Christ is the end of the law (Rom 10v4) and that Jesus cancelled the written code (Col 2v14) which in theory cancelles anything that actually puts a value to sin.
Then I would say that it is impossible for a New Covenant believer to sin.
BUT
2) That said, Heb 8:12 says "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities I will remember no more."
also read Rom 4v8; Isaiah 54; Psalm 130v3-4.
This clearly shows that we can and do sin, even though God does not remember our sin and more.
Because our sins have been dealt with does not mean we do not sin.
What do you reakon??
If you are talking about us having a sin consciousness, that is a totally different kettle of fish
I think you've put those two things very well together. I think it's true that while our sin has been put away (spiritually speaking), we still sometimes follow our fleshly patterns and commit sins.
Example. A married Christian has been born again and is a new creation. His sin is gone, dealt with, etc, all because of the blood of Jesus. This married man sleeps with another woman. He has committed a sin.
This sin may hurt people. This sin may result in a variety of unwanted circumstances. This sin may have consequences. And those consequences are real.
But in God's eyes, this man's sin has been taken away. It was taken care of on the cross. It was nailed to the cross with Christ, never to be brought up again, because the man was also nailed to the cross with Christ (spiritually speaking) and he also rose with Christ into a brand new life of righteousness, peace, justification, etc.
Paul used the word "sin" a lot of times in regards to the actions of Christians, so I think it's safe to say that we commit sinful acts. But Paul was also the one who made the best points about where that sin comes from, as contrasted with the righteous beings that we are in Christ. :)
What is sin? Is it smoking, drinking, lying, stealing, fornicating,murder etc etc etc?
Are these not perhaps the attributes of sin? and the works of the Flesh? Consider Rom 4:15 For the LAW results in devine wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression (of it either)Read the whole of Rom 5 again..Sin entered the world through 1 man, and death as a result of sin .. what was Adams sin. It was unbelief, he 'unbelieved' that he was created in the image and likeness of God when he entertained the lie of satan that if they ate the fruit they would BECOME just like God. Read Rom 5;13 Now Jesus came and fulfilled the law so there can not be anymore law. But read Rom 5:20 Where sin increased Grace has surpassed it and increased more ...:21 ...which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ.. This is for those who receive Gods Grace by believing the report (Ish 52), believing Gods message and believing in His Messanger. Read John 6:29 This is the work and service that God asks of you: That you ....Now most importantly look at John 16:8 and :9 About sin, because they do not believe in Me ... what do we believe about Jesus .. That He did .. on my behalf, that all work is finished, it is done! I am in unbelief if I try and earn my righteousness, or if I think by my efforts I can become holy or more holy etc ..There is therefor only one sin ..the sin of unbelief... this seperates me from God because I don't really believe what He has done on my behalf in Christ. If I don't believe I am already judged. John 3:18 If Jesus came to take away the sin of the world, then in Jesus there can not be any sin ... so if I believe I can not sin, but if I don't believe I have done the one sin that condems me! If I am dictated to by the flesh then the works of the flesh will be evident and manifest, lying, stealing, fornicating etc ... But as Light floods my being and the completed work of the Cross is realized in me I am set free from bondage, realizing that I AM DEAD TO SIN Rom 6:2 & 7.. The bible teaches as a man thinks so is he ... as I think and BELIEVE so am I!If I think and BELIEVE that I am dead to sin then so I will be .. Man God is so awsome, and once one starts with the word you can just carry on forever ..Please forgive me for being so long winded, I just LOVE the Word ... So I believe as Christian BELIEVERS we do not sin,and if we do sin we are not a BELIEVERS.Read 1John 3:6-9
Also 1John 1:8 & 9 The context is we are sinners we admit we have sinned(not believed)(we don't admit all the works of our flesh eg I did this and I stole that), now we confess(this word describes 'saying the same that God says')I say the same God says about my sins ... That Jesus took away the sin of the world... as far as the east is from the west.... The bible says all have sinned(remember sin is unbelief) and fall short...So this is all my confession and God is true and faithfull and I am confident that I am forgiven etc ....
What say yee?
I just looked up the word "sin" in the Bible and it's no lie that the very first three instances I looked at, there were three different Greek words that are all translated "sin" in English. :)
John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin (hamartia - feminine noun) of the world." (John 1:29) This is the form of the word that means "to miss the mark" or "the complex or aggregate of sins committed by either a single person or many." I personally refer to this as the "sin condition." Jesus has taken away the sin condition. This is the same word Paul uses when he says, "for sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me" and "the body is dead because of sin" and "Being then made free from sin, you became servants of righteousness," etc.
As I understand it, Jesus died to take away our hamartia.
However, in other verses Paul uses the verb form of the word. "What then, shall we sin (hamartano - verb) because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" (Rom 6:15). "Be angry and do not sin" (Eph 4:26). "But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ." (1 Cor 8:12). "Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body." (1 Cor 6:18).
As I understand it, this verb form of the word (hamartano) is not the "sin" that Christ took away. The sin that Christ took away was hamartia, the noun, the condition of sin. However, the verb form is different. Christians still can commit harmartano (sinful acts), but Paul, Peter, John, and the writer of Hebrews strongly urge against it. If our hamartia has been taken away, then why should we hamartano any longer?
In other words, people without Christ are still in hamartia, and will die in their hamartia if they don't become born again (by grace alone, through faith) and have their hamartia removed. Since they are in hamartia (noun), it is only "natural" for them to "hamartano" (verb). But since as Christians our hamartia has been taken away, then let's not hamartano, even though it's still possible for us to do it.
If a Christian sleeps with a person other than his or her spouse, he or she is still without hamartia, and always will be because of the blood of Jesus, but yet that person has just committed hamartano.
Does this make sense?
The third form of the word is "hamartema," another noun form, and I just lost my reference for it, but it's used much less than the other noun form.
Hoping that the way I tried to explain my thoughts isn't too complex. I just re-read what I wrote, and I think my thought process (whether right or wrong) is followable, but I don't know for sure. :)
Gee, you guys Know some stuff!!!
On my side .... where lego blocks are challenging :-)
I 'feel' that the improtant thing is that:
No1 - God no longer sees our sin ...action or in thought, as Jesus made no distinction between the two.(Matthew 5:28)
No2 - We no longer have a sinful nature, Ryan Ruffus does this topic justice... go read it.
No3 - our minds arent fully transformed .. well mine is not! So although my spirt nature is sanctified, and I (physical) still need to line up with it and along the way will hit some bumps in the road.
So do or can we sin ....?
Physically yes
But it is not counted against us ... I guess its like having unlimited lives in a PC game, you just get up and move on.
What do you think?
Coatesman
Wow..what a great blog!
This is so helpful.
As we test the waters of our lives against the TRUTH of the word, we unravel the scandalous glory and mystery of Christ in us.
How wonderful it is that God says we are the ones who ARE righteous FOREVER and are BEING MADE holy.
When we see the horror of our sin, but through Him, lose our fear of it's enormity, it shrinks..He grows and we are positioned for transformation! Hallelujah..Victory!
We fellowship with Him and not our sin and He can love on us with the love that transforms us in a covenant of ever-increasing GLORY!
Thank you Lord!
Well ,I can only tell you guys "you have truely all blessed me and as we explore we SEE more and more. You rock!
I want to venture at this point and explore the thought of maybe in the light of where we all come from ... teachings of law, condemnation, and the ugly monster of CONTROL ..that it might be good to try and refer in our sharing and admonishing and teaching others, to sin ( Joel so wonderfully explained (yes very understandable and followable)) as Paul does. Hamartia is SIN ... this is the sin that seperates us from God.
And Hamartano the stuff ... the atributes ... the works of the flesh that we encourage and warn believers to flee from ... strongly urge against. Paul had 3 diff words in Greek to explain this...Maybe it will help all believers if we used diff words to explain what paul said.
Coatesman, very well said (there might be some virtue in practicing on lego blocks yet, you have it pretty much together!)I have a thought here about our Spirit and body(physical) being sanctified, when you say you need to line up(I'm not sure exactly how you interpret this?) I believe that the word tells me I(the whole and all of me) am set free, sanctified, made holy (in8, just a thought for you .. Holy now, not being made holy in time or for the sweet by and by) and perfected. Rom 6:22 Coatesman and in8 and me, now since we have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, we have our PRESENT reward in holiness and it's end is everlasting eternal life! Heb 3: 1 So then Coatesman & in8, HOLY, consecrated and set apart Brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling ......Will you dare to be so outrageous and bold to believe what God says about you!
Read Gal 2:20 .. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I NOW LIVE IN THE FLESH (body) I live by faith of the Son of God (I trust in and rely on what He did and achieved on behalf of me!!!)Yes and amen Lord ..I believe it and take it. In life, when I am faced with a "hamartano" in the physical flesh, the cold hard evidence and reality of a "stuff" that I have done or thought.... The Spirit that now lives in me responds (either immediately or else in a while) by confessing what my heart now really believes .. and what I have come to know through the Word of God, what God says about me and the stuff (ok call it sin if you must)He says I am holy, consecrated, perfected, His beloved, etc etc. So I can boldly approach (Heb 4:16)His throne of Grace to receive mercy so that I can find and obtain Grace to help in time ... It is always what I choose to BELIEVE (and obviously then also confess) even in the face of a contradiction that sets me free! No more bondage, no more sin "as a man Believes so is he.."
Ponder and meditate this:
THE WORD OF GOD BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US(flesh) .....
We must REPENT(as Rob Rufus explained) this word is change your mind RE .. is re-think, or do it over PENT is like a pent house ..right on top overviewing everything, seeing all, it is high, the highest ... So God says re think your old thoughts, change and think like Me... higher thoughts, heaven thoughts .. See from MY eyes from the Higher life and believe what I say about you & things. Now the WORD is Christ(in the flesh) As He is so am I in THIS WORLD (physically..flesh..my body...not only spiritually)
So truely spoken ing8!!!You are Flying high.
Wayno ....
What do you think??
Coatesman
Thanks Chris…here’s what I think…
Firstly thanks all for the contributions…it’s a good debate.
Were looking at the statement that’s “it’s impossible to sin under grace.”
I’m going to approach this from two aspects, first pastorally, and then scripturally.
Now at our church there are about 100 people on a Sunday. Here is the break down.
10 unsaved (including those who think there saved?)
10 very new Christians
10 teenagers
50 mature Christians who are transitioning out of old covenant Christianity to grace
20 people who have a firm grip on grace
What’s the goal? It’s to join god, under anointed spirit leadership, to bring each person the fullness of what God wants for them. To live in grace.
I want to ask what effect this statement “it’s impossible to sin under grace.” Will have on each group.
To the 10 unsaved, I think it will present a Christianity that is weak, and wonder i how much real change there will be if they misunderstand this.
For the 10 teenagers, this teaching would simply not be helpful to where they are. Major current issues are dating and sexual boundaries, alcohol and media. They need to know that “not all things are beneficial”.
For the 10 new Christians. These guys are vulnerable. Often dealing with a major transition. Stopping habitual habits like swearing, porn and the like. They are also often on a faith walk to destroy addictions. My concern is that they might abandon these efforts with the thought “I can do no wrong”.
My greatest concern is probably the 50, which also include some leaders. “it’s impossible to sin under grace.” May cause a strong negative reaction to the entire grace message, and a major shut down to the transition. There is a skillfulness and a tenderness required to transition people into a new place. Were not trying to be right, were trying to bring people “into”. It’s easy to have “revelations” when you’re a Christian standing alone, but when were involved in pasturing, our revelations and how we responsibly handle them will effect others peoples lives, either positively or negatively. We need wisdom.
For the 20 or so who understand grace well, I have no real concerns. We know that he loves us no matter what; we can discuss a lot more without it affecting our lives.
I know that under the grace, he tells us how to live (writes law on hearts and minds). I know that he makes us do the right thing (it is Christ who works in us to act and to will). If he writes something on our hearts, and we go contrary to that, we sin.
James 4:17:
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
If we know what we should do, and don’t we sin.
James 5:16:
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective
We can’t confess if we don’t sin
I Corinthians 6:18:
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
We have sin we commit outside our body, and to our bodies.
I John 5:17:
All wrongdoing is sin
I John 1:8:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
I Corinthians 8:12:
When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
I Corinthians 8:13:
Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
I Corinthians 11:27:
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
Galatians 5:13:
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.
Hebrews 3:12:
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
I John 2:1:
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
I John 5:16:
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that
We can clearly sin under grace, as I see it.
Where I think the confusion comes in is here.
Our SPIRITS cannot sin. The core of who are, our spirits are made perfect forever, so in a sense the real us, the core of who we are, cannot sin. But we cannot therefore say, we cannot sin. It’s more like 1/3 of us cannot sin.
Now if we live by the spirit we will not sin. Those who live according to the spirit will not for fill the lusts of the flesh. If we could do this 100% of the time, we would never sin. Unfortunately however, I don’t know anyone like this. Only Jesus managed to do this, as far as I know. For the rest of us, we will have moments when the flesh dominates us (hopefully these are getting less), in those moments we may do something contrary to the spirit…this is sin. Ultimate victory over sin therefore lies in being “in him” permanently. The only thing that will get us to this place is grace.
These are my thoughts, still learning and open to discussion…
“it’s scary when someone changes there theology, it’s even scarier when we don’t”
Wayno
Cant remeber were I heard this ... "Grace takes the bite out of sin"
True we sin, but the thing that gets me so excited is that fact that there is no power or sting any more. No more condemnation ...and yes even guilt.... oh the scandal!!
How can you not be guilty .. you just sinned?
Guilt is an emotion stirred by the devil and law, but I am a new creation ruled by the new spirit in me. Made alive!!! and thats how I feel, so when I slip up I acknowledge my stupidity. Re-Pent ..fixing my thought on who I am getting up free and back into His lap.
.... I guess all this has been said already :-) Its just so cool to share it over and over again.
C
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