Question
Some say that chasing after signs and wonders is bad, and that you should rather chase the power and the presence...what do you think?
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Romans 3:21-25
21But now the righteousness of God (1)apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God, (2)through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on (3)all who believe. For there is no difference; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 (4)being justified (5)freely by His Grace (6) through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God set forth(7) [as] a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
6 comments:
I think it's about time people at large started to accept that there is no distinction between the presence of God and the Glory his presence carries.
He is so significant and wonderful!
Are there really any tangible signs and wonders outside of His presence?
The bible says that no signs and wonders will be given to an unbelieving generation.
We are not of that camp...we believe and we receive.
Apart from Him we cannot produce anything, attached to the vine in intimacy, the harvest is sure to be abundant.
Jesus, we love who you are AND what you do..in us ..on us, through us and around us..
We boldly ask for more of you, more of your wonders displayed to and unbelieving generation through believers in order that salvation might come to all who witness your Glory..More Lord
I agree with Roy here. I believe that signs and wonders happen where God has manifested His presence. So if you chase His presence, signs and wonders will be there, and visa versa.
Like if you see someones car outside a shop, the it is very likely that that person is in the shop.
signs are like a road sign. Lets say a sign says 30ks to Port Edward, you dont stop at the sign, you go on to the goal, Port Edward!!! Worshipping the sign would be doff and pointless.!!!
Hi all!
I just wonder what the Bible says about Christians chasing after signs and wonders?
Perhaps I have a problem with the word "chase." Maybe I would use the word "seek." However, even using the word "seek," I've become more and more convinced that we (Christians) are not even meant to be God-seekers. God has found us and His presence is in us all the time. There is nothing left to seek. :)
Peter, in 2 Peter 1:3-4, reminds us that "God's divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature..."
This might take some extra explanation, but I believe that Jesus words, "seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" are words to those who have not yet come into His kingdom and have not yet found His righteousness! Am I off on this?
What I'm saying is that we are now in Him and He is in us. The kingdom is within us and we have become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. As the Vine, Jesus simply says to the branches, "abide in Me, and my words in you, and you will bear fruit." He is our life source, and our "job" is not to seek Him but to rest in Him who has found us and who keeps us by His very life.
It's my fear that many Christians are seeking for what they already have. I think many Christians are also seeking for "experiences" rather than resting in the sufficient life of Christ within. They are seeking but never finding because they are looking for outward signs, when in reality Jesus' kingdom is within. That said, it's not that He can't and doesn't show Himself in many outward ways!
James does use the phrase, "draw near to God and He will draw near to you." Is this perhaps a better way to look at this? I don't know. We are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17), and that is where our life is found, and that is true whether we 'feel' it or not, but experientially (in our senses, in our souls - minds, wills, emotions) we can draw close to HIM and find Him drawing close to us.
Also, Paul did say to "earnestly desire the best gifts" (1 Cor 12:31). But he directly follows those words with, "And yet I show you a more excellent way."
The more excellent way is love. What is the fruit of the Spirit? It starts with love. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. These things are the real substance of God manifesting Himself in us! How does this fruit manifest itself in our lives? Again, Jesus said, abide in Me, and My words in you, and you will bear fruit.
I am not so sure where we got the idea that "fruit" means "converts" or souls saved. Most certainly, we want to see souls saved! But I believe the fruit that comes from knowing Jesus is love, joy, peace... etc.
"By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another" (John 13:35).
As Paul went on to say in the above passage, continuing on into 1 Cor 13, I could speak with the tongues of men and angels, I could have the gift of prophecy, I could understand all mysteries and all knowledge, I could have all faith so that I could remove mountains, I could give all my things away and give to the poor, I could give my body to be burned... BUT what the heck does any of that matter if I don't have love! Without love I am nothing more than sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. I am nothing. Without love, it profits me nothing.
I'm not saying that love negates miracles, gifts, signs and wonders. Not at all. :) But what I am saying is that as I look out into the worldwide church, I see people seeking after a lot of things but are yet not grounded in love, the most important thing.
I personally see Jesus' words that "unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe," are meant as a negative statement. Not that He didn't continue on with signs and wonders, but in the end we see that people such as Thomas really missed out on something greater than sight (signs and wonders). Jesus told him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed."
We also see that signs and wonders did not always lead to saved souls.
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know — Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. (Acts 2:22-24)
These people were witnesses of Jesus' miracles, signs and wonders and yet they took Him and crucified Him and put Him to death!
That said, we do see in Acts that "many wonders and signs were done through the apostles."
In saying all this, you do realize that I'm just adding my two pennies worth. :) This is where I personally sit with things at this point in life. I have found much peace and contentment in my life in Christ apart from miracles, signs and wonders. It is enough for me to know Him as He speaks to me in many ways in my heart. The message He has called me to preach personally involves the truth of the gospel of God's grace, and it's the truth that sets people free. I've seen the truth set people free, and that's where my contentment lies.
But yet I fully understand that God also works through miracles, signs and wonders! My overall concern is that my brothers and sisters in Christ know Jesus and His love far above all else.
I agree guys, it's exciting to hear testimonies about what God is doing all around the world these days...
- "Jesus we love who you are and what you do...in us ..on us, through us and around us."
Joel,
I always love your two cents....and though I cannot go on a long thought out, with Scriptures at the ready, response, all I know is the more God touches me with His presence, in a tangible way, the more I grow in love with Him, which then in turn flows through me as love......I want whatever God has for me, whatever way He brings it....but that's just my 2 pennies:)
Amen Lydia! "Whatever way He brings it." :)
I just want to affirm that I'm not in any way speaking against signs and wonders, or God's power and presence!
In answer to the specific question, "Some say that chasing after signs and wonders is bad, and that you should rather chase the power and the presence...what do you think? - my thoughts are "neither." I don't know of any scripture that says to seek after these particular things (I may be wrong), but I do see scripture that tells us to abide in Christ Jesus, the Vine, and we will bear fruit. He says, "apart from Me you can do nothing," and we're told that we "can do all things through Christ, who strengthens us." The focus, from what I understand, is the very Person who has come to live in us - Christ Jesus.
From the way I've lived my life the past 16 years, trusting in this Life within, I've discovered that there is no chasing to be done. His presence is always here, because I am one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). I absolutely love big and wonderful outward manifestations, as well as times of great emotional release - that He usually delivers when I least expect it!
But in my day to day life I'm not personally seeking after any of this. I'm simply seeking to know Christ-in-me (a Person), my hope of glory. In other words, my hope of glory isn't an experience or a manifestation. My hope of glory is a Person. As I grow in grace, and in the knowledge of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18), He manifests Himself in so many ways that I simply can't keep count! And most of the time, it's not flashy, it's not "big," it's not a miracle or a sign or a wonder. It's just Him being Him in and through me! I can rest in Him, but if I'm seeking after experiences and manifestations, I can't rest. Again, my 2 pennies. I guess that's 4 pennies now. :)
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